Curse

Willow O Whisper · Sep 23, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I really think this thread could produce some good discussion if we got over a few things:

1. No mindless class bashing. "ritualists suck" is not an argument.

2. No mindless class praising. "mesmers rule" in not an argument.

3. Provide real reasons. "I can beat PvE with my paragon" is not a reason why paragons are a good class. a team of seven could beat everything without you.

4. This is not PvP discussion. "...but mesmers can shutdown the enemy monk in GvG" has no place here.

5. This in not a 1v1 discussion. "my assassin can beat anything" has no place anywhere.

He he pretty much killed the thread huh?

Well it was a pretty dumb topic for starters, so why not end it here before someone gets hurt ? To be honest there is no "WORST" proffession in the game only good and bad players end of disscusion.

DudeManOzzy · Sep 24, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLZiwU96Pg

watch this people, not what i'd think an assassin would do well in, but hey, 10 consecutive wins, i'm not gonna blight it

Yanman.be · Sep 24, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

He would better drop hoto+ fs for twisting fangs-moebius-db.

Snow Bunny · Sep 24, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Any idiot can run his finger down 1234567 and hope for a kill.
Not every idiot can always hit his Bull's Strike, or know when to Frenzy.
It's harder to play a *good* warrior.

QFT.

Go to low-end PvP arenas (including AB, which is pve...)
and explain to me why there are so many assassins.

DudeManOzzy · Sep 24, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

QFT.

Go to low-end PvP arenas (including AB, which is pve...)
and explain to me why there are so many assassins.

Because they think just because they think assassins are cool, that they'll be good with them. Only a few of them will actually be skilled and use the assassin well

Willow O Whisper · Sep 24, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

To be honest i see just as many "noob" monks and warriors as i see noob assassins in ra/ab, ra/ab are testing grounds so sure you will be able to find alot of noobs/newbies, and some guys being unlucky with a build. If you wan't real challange and see the gems of the assassin world, you won't find them in ab or ra. There are quite few of them, where on the other site you will find quite alot high end monk and warrior players, wich should tells something about the lvl of skill it requires to play the many diffrent kinds of proffessions.

Btw doesen't everyone press 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 ? if you don't i woulden't wan't to have you guys on my team as you don't seam to get the idea about hot-keys ^^. Sure anyone can smash buttons the real trick is to know when to press.
Hm.. let me take a look... Yup a Wammo and a Monkey i guess you don't like Mesmers either do you ?

fireflyry · Sep 24, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willow O Whisper

To be honest i see just as many "noob" monks and warriors as i see noob assassins in ra/ab, ra/ta are testing grounds so sure you will be able to find alot of noobs/newbies, and some guys being unlucky with a build.

QFT

Also as I previously mentioned a few pages back a badly played Sin sticks out like a sore thumb.The same can be said for any glass cannon type of profession.

Truth is you don't notice other classes as much because even if played badly they often can still have an ok chance of survival and DPS output, at least much higher than a Sin when considering the overall role, goal and risk involved.

The repercussions for bad play as a Sin is usually zero DPS followed by a mouthful of dirt.

In saying even when played well Sins get blamed for all sorts of crap.In many ways we are the official scapegoat of Guild Wars.

Sin is high risk, high skill.

You play bad, you die...often...usually first...and everyone notices.

You play well, you kill, your survive and you get "fkn noob sin" wisps.

Such is the life of a glass cannon.

LaserLight · Sep 25, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Oh yeah Snow Bunny. it takes sooo much more skill to play a Warrior than an Assassin. Yup, ye have to worry about when to cancel Frenzy, and how to best hit someone when they're kiting with your anti-kiting skill. Ye also have to worry about all those people gunning to get past your effective 100AL base, on armor alone, never mind that useless shield ye have to keep strapped to your arm. Really hard to beat on someone with your unrelated attack skills - if someone interrupts one, you don't get the damage for that skill! yeah, a Warrior's life is so much harder than an Assassin's. After all, Assassins are high-priority targets in a lot of places, that's always a cinch to deal with. They've only got 70AL base, so much less weight for them to carry! Plus, all their interlinked attack skills make it soo easy to just run up to someone and pound them in, because no one, ye know, takes stuff like Riposte or Shield Bash or any other of what feels like half a hundred (when ye're Assassinating) anti-skill melee defense moves.

Yup, it's so easy to just run a thumb down the number keys and get your kills...

In case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm insulted as all hell by this whole red Engine Go-ed thread, and I've normally got a pretty thick skin when it comes to people calling me a noob-puppy for playing Assassin.

I wonder what would happen if every arrogant Wammo in this game had to trade in their massive AL, free-AL shields, easily-landed skills, endless Deep Wounds and Knockdowns for an Assassin character. Heh, wonder how many of them would go insane from an absolute lack of kills inside an hour.

Seriously folks, grow a brain before you make comments like that. If it really was as easy as punching in number keys whenever you felt like it, then all those hordes of Assassins in AB and RA would be a threat, instead of a corpse waiting to happen. A really good Assassin is just as hard to find as a really good Mesmer or a really good Monk. Each requires excellent situational awareness and a keen sense of timing. As well, Assassins need to learn, very early, when to abort a spike and run and when to stick it out, something I've seen all of...maybe three Warriors who knew how to do. Assassins need to know, more than any other weapon class, exactly where they need to be and who they need to hit, and an Assassin's skillbar can be one of the most intricate and subtle sets in this game short of a Mesmer. Only idiots use the seven-skill megaspikes that take forever to launch and never get to their conclusion because the target either kites, self-heals, interrupts the spiker, or just plain kills the spiker first. A good Assassin needs to fit a fatal spike chain inside, at most, four seconds, and even that is pushing the absolute edge of it. They need to be able to do it alone and unaided, and they need to do it while also fitting in skills that allow them to survive the inevitable counterattack, and the times when they get chased by people looking to pre-empt a spike, since they're rarely within reach of a Monk's help. Warriors...pound on things, and occasionally punch HealSig or Mending Touch as needed whilst hiding behind their ungodly AL.

I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to play a Warrior well. It takes skill to play any class in this game well. But let me ask you, how offended would the Wammos of the world be if I said to them "you guys have it so easy, all you have to do is chase squishies around and hit 1, 2 and 3 any time you get the adren up!" That's not true, and is a putrid thing to say. So is "any idiot can hit 1234567 and hope for a kill."

Heh...say it again, and I'll kill you in 3456. After using 1 and 2 to set myself up, and then I'll use 7 and 8 to get away and heal before going after your 55-ing buddy. And that's with a more mainstream Assassin build rather than the three-skill kills I've seen some of the truly potent ones get off. And once you're on the ground faster than even a Searing Flames Elementalist could get you there, wondering exactly what the Assassin who killed you looked like because he was in, done, and out too fast for you to get a good look at him...well, we'll see then, eh?

moriz · Sep 25, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38

your understanding of game mechanics is too shallow. so until you can actually understand the game better, it's useless to explain to you why warriors take more skill to play than assassins.

it is impossible to play a bad assassin for anyone with a normal IQ and very basic understanding of game mechanics. those dead assassins you see in AB and RA are retards straight off the shortbus. in fact, assassins are notorious for being a profession that makes everyone perform equally well. place a top 10 gvger and an average player on SP sins, and they'll perform pretty much equally well. the same cannot be said if you get them to play a shock axe.

BlackSephir · Sep 25, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

But the difference between good A player and average SP player is that good A player can run something different than SP sin.

moriz · Sep 25, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

by average player, i don't mean an average SP sin player specifically. you cannot be a specialized SP sin player, simply because SP sin is so mindlessly easy to play.

in fact, it's impossible to specialize in assassins in general. take a look at the players in the top 10. how many of them play assassins specifically? none of them. on the other hand, how good are they at playing assassins? all them equally well. unfortunately, their performance while playing them is more or less the same as an average, top 500 player because the assassin is such a dumbed down profession. they are simple to play, and simple to master. unfortunately they don't allow a lot of leeway to allow skilled players to show their skills.

a warrior allows a skilled player to demonstrate his skills to maximum effect. an assassin does not. it's as simple as that.

lacasner · Sep 25, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

your understanding of game mechanics is too shallow. so until you can actually understand the game better, it's useless to explain to you why warriors take more skill to play than assassins.

it is impossible to play a bad assassin for anyone with a normal IQ and very basic understanding of game mechanics. those dead assassins you see in AB and RA are retards straight off the shortbus. in fact, assassins are notorious for being a profession that makes everyone perform equally well. place a top 10 gvger and an average player on SP sins, and they'll perform pretty much equally well. the same cannot be said if you get them to play a shock axe.

This isn't rocket science or quantum physics..how about you get off your high horse and realize that tabbing and pressing keys is a pretty bad barometer for measuring skill level.

Quote:

in fact, it's impossible to specialize in assassins in general. take a look at the players in the top 10. how many of them play assassins specifically? none of them. on the other hand, how good are they at playing assassins? all them equally well. unfortunately, their performance while playing them is more or less the same as an average, top 500 player because the assassin is such a dumbed down profession. they are simple to play, and simple to master. unfortunately they don't allow a lot of leeway to allow skilled players to show their skills.

a warrior allows a skilled player to demonstrate his skills to maximum effect. an assassin does not. it's as simple as that.

Why you even talk about SP in an argument is befuddling...because pretty much the distinction of when to do the spike can be determined of recognizing player patterns and how to actually make the combo work.

Now, I can actually agree the build itself is one of the easiest sin builds to run..but to actually make a 1 in every 15 second spike work is what separates "good SP sins" from bad ones. AB and RA cannot be used as a reference for your argument either, because these places have relatively new PvP players and just don't learn the nuances of games quick enough.

moriz · Sep 25, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

if you're really interested in a better explaination, here it is:

generally, any offensive class have at least one avenue of attack; it's a sequence of events in which they can use to inflict damage and hopefully get a kill. the difference comes at how many avenues there are for a given profession, and how effective it is.

take, for the sake of argument, a shock axe warrior and a SP sin. both are melee range builds that are designed to kill something. as such, they are both representative of their respective professions. now let's compare them.

the shock axe as a build have existed since prophecies, and even through multiple skill updates, through the ridiculous power creep of NF, the build remains essentially the same: eviscerate, follow-up axe attack, bull's strike, shock, frenzy, cancel stance, heal sig, rez sig. it is the frontline mainstay of many gvg builds, and many top gvg guilds rode on the strength of this build to victory. what is it about this build that makes it so powerful? well, the answer is not really because of the build, but instead because of the players who play them. the key to this build's continued success is because of its multiple avenue of attack, all of them equally effective. it can spike effectively, it can apply tremendous pressure through skilled use of shock and bull's strike. it's disruption capability can create long windows of opportunities for their team to make a successful push to score a key kill. even if completely stumped in 8v8 play, their general toughness and high damage potential allows them to wipe out an entire base, archers, knights, bodyguard, in under 4 minutes if left unhindered. the reason why a skilled player can be this effective with this build is because its skills can exist independantly, allowing the skilled player to string them in creative ways in response to a wide range of enemy defense to get that kill.

now let's look at the standard SP sin: sp, tiger stance, BLS, horns, BSS, BoS, impale, dash/expose defenses. it has one extremely effective avenue of attack: a single combo that can take out any soft target if left unhindered. however, unlike the shock axe, it does not have other avenues of attack to exploit if their one superpowered avenue gets shut down. for SP sins (and pretty much all sin builds in general), it's all or nothing: either they blast through their combo and score a kill, or their combo gets shut down and they accomplish absolutely nothing. to add insult to injury, this build cannot even gank all that well because of their lack of self heal and speed boost.

given what i've written, it should now be pretty easy to understand why i say sins do not reflect the skill of the player. warriors have weaker burst damage but have many ways to deliver it (assuming the player is skilled enough), while the sin can instagib a target but can only do it in one way and one way only. the inherit limitations of the profession itself does not leave any room for a skilled player to make skillful plays.

this also ties back to the original question: is this the worst class in the game? the answer is no, because it's impossible to be truly bad with it (and impossible to be truly good, but that's not the question asked).

BlackSephir · Sep 25, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a warrior allows a skilled player to demonstrate his skills to maximum effect. an assassin does not. it's as simple as that.

Sorry, that's s not 'as simple as that', that's bullshit.

You can say assa requires only 1-x buttons to succeed, I can say that playing as a rit requires no skill at all because you pray 1 minute and look at spirits throw balls- true? No.

If you want 'as simple as that' then here it is- there are good Assa players and bad Assa players just like there are good Warrior players and bad Warrior players.

I'd suggest trying to play as an assassin different than SP sin but...

moriz · Sep 25, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

i have, and they are all the same. except the SP sin is more effective.

lastly, there are no such thing as a bad assassin player. the ones who are bad at it are either complete GW newbies or utter retards. once a player reach a certain level of skill (and not a high skill at that, just some basic positioning and battlefield awareness), they automatically become "good" at playing assassin.

too bad none of you have achieved that level, since everything i'm saying is going right over your heads.

LaserLight · Sep 25, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

No, it's not going over my head. I'm well aware that a well-designed and well-played Warrior is a more flexible and adaptable threat. Your example is a good one, and I will concede that a masterfully-played shock axe build can be a beautiful thing to see.

However, just because Assassins weren't designed around multiple independent skills that can just so happen to work together decently does not mean that they're a hopeless class. Many high-level Guild battles I've seen have featured Assassins as well as Warriors, and not all of them are SP Tigersins. Admittedly, many of them are, but I will always recall one particular Assassin I saw play back when Factions was new. He was using an Aura of Displacement build, and ended up locked inside the enemy base when his Thief was killed. Rather than teleport out and ditch, he stayed there, with all eight of his enemies chasing him through the Hall. He used Aura of Displacement on key NPCs to evade attack, and managed to knock off two more Archers and escape from his enemies alive when his guild sent a split element with a rezzed Thief to reinforce him.

I don't think any old average schmuck could play that way and live to tell about it. You're confusing the mindlessness of the Shadow Prison build with the Assassin being fairly mindless in general. No, it's not a top class, and it never will be. Of all four of the professions released after Prophecies, only the Dervish has muscled its way into a majority of top builds. Paragons have a place in some builds, but Assassins and Ritualists tend to be left out save when people need quick kills.

Am I an ultra-elite Top 500 GvG player of +5 arrogance? Nah. I'm just an AB Assassin, nothing special there. My guild's too small for GvG, and the people in it are all old friends, so we won't recruit up to it either. But ye know? Not everyone has to be a top 500 player and hate everything that doesn't work in world-level GvG. No, a Shadow Prison Assassin isn't as flexible as a Shock Axe Warrior, and it can't gank an enemy base alone. I'm not asking it to. In fact, I'd kinda like the Shadow Prison build to go crawl under a rock and die somewhere because I'm as sick of seeing it as everyone else is.

But please. Stop calling every Assassin that walks in the door a noobcake or a rookie or someone-too-stupid-to-understand-that-Warriors-are-better. Don't assume that just because I prefer my Assassin to the Warrior I don't have that I can't understand a multi-tiered attack approach or tactical independence and flexibility, or that I'm too dumb to realize that the tactics I use wouldn't likely work against all those oh-so-awesome top players. Don't think that I, and every other pro-Assassin player in existence, is just a dumbfudge defending the Shadow Prison build.

Heh...I suppose I can just state it as "Stop thinking all Assassin players suck."

Coloneh · Sep 25, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

he didnt say assassin players suck. he simply said:

Anyone who didnt just just take off their helmet to see the screen better will have about the same effectiveness on an assassin. Also anyone can play an "ok" warrior, but it actually takes skill to run a good one.

seems like it was going above your head...

khaderach19 · Sep 25, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

I think the main bias against Assassins is there lack of versatility on the field, which is farther from the truth. Assassins can played as front-liners, or they can play backliners (take a look as a assacast builds), but they excel primarily as mid-liners playing as meelee support or flaggers for the front and back lines.

here are some of my favorite Assassin roles:
2nd line meelee: put up defenses (CD, S of Distress), run in after the tank, blinding powder, plus moebius-blossom pressure, can take down meelee mobs in seconds, without taking much damage. (the Assassins ability to block meelee damage is the best in the game, stacking critical defense, flashing blades or Shroud of distress and a tank won't be able to touch you)

Body Guard: taking pressure of your casters, by either redirecting damage or body blocking and applying conditions (blind esp).

AoE degeneration: With a secondary mesmer, fevered dreams is my favorite hex spell for a meelee player. Shadow step into a middle of a mob, stick in Black mantis thrust, black spider strike, and twisting fang to deal out cripple poison bleeding and deep wound in under 4 seconds, then shadow step out with return. have a nuker get ready to bomb the mob. or get another sin to jump in with AoE meelee to finish them off. (Me and a guildy sin took down a 20 minion army in less than 10 seconds)

Shadow snaring: (excellent two man team build) using a 16 Shadow attribute, and shadow form and 12 water magic, just jump in pop off deep freeze or ice spikes and jump out with return. Then your partner can nuke-em while they are crippled with a 66% speed debuff. (useful for a two team capping run in AB) (pss: me and my little sister (shes 13, and she played fast cast echo nuker) used this team in AB in the middle of a gigantic mob battle. 8 out of 12 dead in 20 seconds)

bottom like is: To be an excellent Assassin requires two things, knowing where you place in a team dynamic and that you don't always have to use daggers. yes, Warriors can be more versatile on HOW they attack, but skill-wise give any person a few months to learn a couple of warrior builds and they can run through HA with any of them with the same effectiveness as a top 500 player. Look at a warriors attributes, Strength, tactics and weapon mastery, tactics might be the only useful one against a large number of foes. Plus they only excel at one role: meelee. But make an assassin and you can play a myriad of roles in a team. The shadow and deadly arts line of skills have some of the most powerful (shadow prison, bequiling haze, shadow form) and un-nerfed skills in the game. The number of roles that an assassin can play only mutiplies the amount of time it takes to master a countless number of builds the class can offer. The only reason you don't see many assassins in high ranked guild is because the learning curve of being an effective assassin is the highest in the game, you start of as a meelee player and as you progress, you figure out that meelee is sometimes not the best option for the situation its these situations that often lead to people abandoning the class altogether.

A warrior is deadly by itself, but an assassin with an ally is deadlier.

BlackSephir · Sep 25, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i have, and they are all the same. except the SP sin is more effective.

lastly, there are no such thing as a bad assassin player. the ones who are bad at it are either complete GW newbies or utter retards. once a player reach a certain level of skill (and not a high skill at that, just some basic positioning and battlefield awareness), they automatically become "good" at playing assassin.

Right, because even bad player will automatically know when HoTO will KD and when not... Oh wait, shock axe warrior doesn't need to know when HoTO will KD! So I guess there are bad players in every profession.
Besides, arent't newbies, noobs and retards considered as 'bad' players?

Quote:

i have, and they are all the same. except the SP sin is more effective.

That was probably interesting 5 minutes.

Quote:

too bad none of you have achieved that level, since everything i'm saying is going right over your heads.

Lookie who's talking about 'going over your head'

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

take, for the sake of argument, a shock axe warrior and a SP sin.

I found your posts entertaining till that statement.

Making such an ill-informed comparison completely negates your stance.Bringing specific build comparisons into the debate is redundant.

You've chosen to compare one of the most versatile and effective Warrior builds ever used to probably the most over-used cookie cutter Sin build in existence.

You have also used this cookie cutter build as the repeated example for your argument of why Warriors take more skill.

lol

They don't, they only do in your given example.

It's not rocket science to see they are more effective in GvG.That example does'nt support or prove your argument right in any way.

It's like me running into the Warrior section claiming warriors take no skill to play because of Wammo builds and mending.As an example of why I'm right I'll compare a Deadly Arts build to a cookie cutter Wammo long adrenal chain rip build and if anyone disagrees with my comparison it must be over their head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

given what i've written, it should now be pretty easy to understand why i say sins do not reflect the skill of the player. warriors have weaker burst damage but have many ways to deliver it (assuming the player is skilled enough), while the sin can instagib a target but can only do it in one way and one way only..

So you've taken a versatile Warrior build and a long dagger chain Sin build, compared them, pointed out the obvious plus and minuses and that makes you right?

Seriously now...

Have you even heard of or played a Deadly Arts build?

I'm assuming not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i have, and they are all the same. except the SP sin is more effective.

lastly, there are no such thing as a bad assassin player. the ones who are bad at it are either complete GW newbies or utter retards. once a player reach a certain level of skill (and not a high skill at that, just some basic positioning and battlefield awareness), they automatically become "good" at playing assassin.

About here is where you proved you have little to no idea what your talking about or at the least are highly bias.I probably still have more game time on my Warrior than my Sin, have played in high rank guilds and know the class like the back of my hand and yet I'd never support your argument.

Your definition of "skill" in Guild Wars is highly skewed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

too bad none of you have achieved that level, since everything i'm saying is going right over your heads.

And about here is where you reveled your unwillingness to actually debate the topic as opposed to get on a self-righteous soap box and preach your right and everybody else is wrong.

No point taking part if your not prepared to respect the opinions of others and entertain the possibility they may have valid points to contribute.